Meidogger oerlis:Lar

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Thank you for the characterisation of stewardship on your user page. I hadn't seen the problems associated with stewards put that clearly before. Aliter 24 nov 2008, 00.25 (UTC)

Thank you. I would hope they're not "problems" so much as "explanations" ++Lar: t/c 24 nov 2008, 01.28 (UTC)

As most stewards you ...

  • ... can be reach best in a wiki that is neither in this language nor in this project, making any question we might have essentially off-topic.
  • ... are unlikely to see messages left on your talk page, yet you had a user page created here that will give the impression of a presence on this wiki for everyone that goes by the fact that links to your user page show it as an "existing page".
  • ... quote policies on Meta, which by their very existence have no relation to the wikis: either the wiki is big enough to make its own policies, or it doesn't have the manpower to investigate the intricacies of Meta.
  • ... point the person who needs help to the request pages on Meta, which have grown into such a bewilderment that they form the most likely subject for any help request you might receive.
  • ... have generalised your user page to the point where you include things that are completely irrelevant to all but those wikis where you intend to be active in other capacity than as a steward.
  • ... tell us you are willing to help, but all in all you don't allow for anyone to actually ask for it, unless it's a matter of discretion in which case it shouldn't be a wiki matter, and therefore not require your stewardship.
  • and had I not corrected them, you would have head a number of errors on your user page, meaning your presence actually worsened this wiki.

I had never seen all those problems put so neatly together before.

Of course, I don't doubt that most stewards really mean to help, and in fact, they usually do so in other less visible ways; it's just that they go about helping in the way of bigwikas. Here on this small wiki, I might be the only one contributing today. And the time I need for this explanation would on several days be all the time I had for contributing. In other words: This thread takes up a complete day's worth of edits. Now, for you as a bigwika to understand the severity of that impact, go to w:en:, your home wiki, and check how many edits are done in a single day. (You may have to use some tricks for that, as it's unlikely to fit in Recent Changes there.) That number is the severity in terms of your home wiki.

Now, imagine that a smallwika would really read all those foreign language pages you linked to, how long do you think that would take? Say, another whole day's worth? How much time would it take to get a request through the refusal system on Meta? Say, two days? Probably too short, but I'll be generous. I hope you're getting an impression of the scale of things.

For stewards to be effective in helping small wikis, they shouldn't be available somewhere else if a smallwika really can't find it on Meta, but rather they should have a presence on the wiki itself so the smallwikas don't have to go find it elsewhere. I was going to write here: "They're a bit like the old Ambassador-system, only they don't represent another wiki.", but in fact, that's exactly what it is, since you do represent another wiki: Meta. If you want to help smallwikas, offer presence on their wiki for them to ask and request stuff, where you as a wikimedian find the information that would cost a smallwika thousands of edits worth of time to find, and fit requests in the format your fellow wikimedians require and can understand. To you the time required to help a small wiki in this way should be negligible; to such small wikis it could save days' worths of editing.

"Problems" or "explanations"? I'll let you be the judge of that. Aliter 24 nov 2008, 19.13 (UTC)

Well that's very thought provoking. Thanks for speaking frankly. I don't have any easy answer to your issues, but you've certainly given me something to think about. Some points:
  • Putting my standard page on every wiki seemed a good idea to me when the facility to do so was developed by Pathoschild... the use of babel is not universal on every wiki, and neither are the user language boxes, so that was a tossup I guess... if I had went with babel it breaks on other wikis.
  • On every wiki that allows it, I have email notification turned on, that's how I knew you had posted something here. (unfortunately, it seems to be somewhat behind, the notice came in just a few minutes ago) So if you need help, post here again and I'll see it, or email me directly, I have "allow email" turned on on every wiki that allows it too.
  • I'm sorry the meta pages are confusing. If you need something done, I'll try to help if I can, just explain what needs doing and I'll walk you through it or make the request for you or whatever.
  • And if there's ever a real emergency, something that the small wiki team can't handle, there are IRC channels where you can go ask for immediate assistance.
Hope that helps. No offense was intended. (and none taken in your forthright comments) ++Lar: t/c 25 nov 2008, 20.24 (UTC)

Siden wiske[bewurkje]

OK, though your user page and talk page are now at odds, I'll post on the assumption that you will in fact see it here, and that you are willing to perform the occasional bit of maintenance. The problem with that is in this case, unfortunately, that you don't actually read Frisian. We, mostly me, have the usual project page Wikiwurdboek:Siden wiskje (clear pages, what en: calls "deleting"). This uses more or less the same mechanism as on w:fy:, and I have diligently been adding pages and explaining the reasons to myself. It's beginning to irk me, though, that the older entries are well beyond the 15 days limit. On the wikipedia, as a behearder, I often am the one doing the maintenance every 15 days on this, but on Wikiwurdboek I have to leave it to someone else. Would you be willing to take care of that here, trusting my judgement, or would you happen to know a steward who can read Frisian who would be able to read the explanations and follow up on them? Aliter 15 maaie 2009, 19.41 (UTC)

Hi Aliter... you know I don't speak Frisian. Normally the answer would be to find a local administrator and ask them to do it. But I see that it seems that there are not any local administrators. You are the only contributor on that page, it seems: Wikiwurdboek:Siden wiskje.... and in fact, you are just about the only contributor to this wiki at all, with very limited exception, (here's the last 5000 contributions: [1]... you have well over 99% of them, I'd say). That is a testament to your interest and dedication, and the projects owe you a vote of thanks for your hard work.
So sure, I could do the deletions, and will if you like, I trust you. But this project needs a local administrator to do the cleanup work that you rightly point out needs doing. Why not you? (if I was going to trust your advice about what to delete, why not do it wholesale?) Your crosswiki contributions show that you are in good standing on many wikis. I suggest you ask for a temporary adminship on this wiki, and if possible, try to grow the community here so others share the burden, and you don't have to do all the work all yourself. You can ask for a temporary adminship at Meta: m:Steward_requests/Permissions#Administrator_access... I suggest at least 3 months. I'd gladly support that request if you decide to go that way. Let me know if that answers the questions. I see from that you had temporary adminship here before: [2] so if there was a reason you didn't want it again, I apologise. ++Lar: t/c 15 maaie 2009, 20.41 (UTC)

Well, I'm actually just inflating the dictionary a bit to change its status to that of a wiki of equal size to w:; that and linking from w: might attract more interest, but once there it's going to need more stress on native entries. And a lot of the edits you see that I made on other projects are actually about problems with the larger project. But anyway, it's not really that I don't want administrator rights here, though I would prefer it if I could get them until there was someone here to ask me stop using them. It's more that I'm getting very tired of the wikimedia/meta/mediawiki structure, and that doesn't really motivate me to try to contact it. Snakesteuben requested that status for me; that's why I bothered, last time. At the moment I don't really care whether I have those rights or not, though I might care once I did reach that first goal of equal size. Aliter 5 jun 2009, 18.26 (UTC)

If you decide you want another tempsysophood just advise and I will set it up for you. ++Lar: t/c 5 jun 2009, 19.49 (UTC)


We've had a request, I think, to make MediaWiki:Pagecategories match MediaWiki:Categories. I agree; I don't know how I missed it before. Can you either correct it so it uses the term rubryk or, OK, set it up so I get the rights to do so myself? Thanks. (There's something really curious with these messages, as the labels on Wiki:Alle_wikiberjochten suggest they would be: MediaWiki:pagecategories and MediaWiki:categories instead; not a big problem, if it wasn't for the fact that these do in fact show content, or the deletion of it.) Aliter 20 jun 2009, 17.53 (UTC)

You wouldn't happen to be able to activate the custom logo with the text "Wikiboeken" on Wikiboeken, would you? Aliter

Hi Aliter. I think to activate a custom logo you need shell access, not totally sure. The way I think that gets done is by filing a m:bugzilla request. Might be wrong. As for the other part of this, I may not completely understand it. Basically, you just want the page MediaWiki:Pagecategories which currently consists of the default text "Categoryen" to be recreated and overriden with the text "Rubriken" ??? When I undeleted it I saw it uses the Filipynsk: PLURAL (tl) construct, so I changed the text to say {{PLURAL:$1|Rubryk|Rubriken}}. Please advise if that's not what you intended. Also let me know if my clue about Bugzilla wasn't enough... is the new custom image ready to go? You'll want to give a link to that as part of your request. ++Lar: t/c 21 jun 2009, 14.13 (UTC)

Yes, I don't know that it's tl, whatever you expected that to do, but the source of MediaWiki:Categories shows that it does indeed use that PLURAL construct. Thanks. Do you have an opinion on whether or not to make it stand out more, eg. bold. For example on natrium, it sort of blends in because of the multiple lines, but then, a page as en:natrium is no different, so maybe it's no concern.

The logo is at [3]. There was more to do than just changing the text, but I can't recall the details anymore. As it is now, it should work. OK, I posted a request; let's see what comes of it. Thanks. Aliter 21 jun 2009, 20.29 (UTC)

oops, "tl" is a template on many (but not all) wikis that displays templates.... you can see it at (for example) m:Template:tl. My use of it here was a mistake, as it's used for something else, I should have written template:PLURAL (or whatever the local word for "template" is) instead, I guess. I don't have any preference on bold or not, but if you want a further change to that page, just ask, I'll be happy to do it for you. As for the logo, I once tried to change the logo used on a non WMF wiki I help with, and I messed it up so I tend to shy away for fear of breaking things. ++Lar: t/c 25 jun 2009, 19.44 (UTC)

Ah, thanks for the explanation about the template. The one you linked to seems to have no documentation to speak of, but I found a similar template at en:w:. It appears to be mostly a shortcut. The name "tl" wouldn't be terribly meaningful in Frisian, but the more general issue is that, as lower-case two, three, and four letter combinations have been claimed for ISO 639 as language codes, you'll rarely find such names for non-language templates here.
I'm not sure about the bold; another one for the virtual todecide-list. The logo was activated, with the usual charm of the developers. Aliter 26 jun 2009, 20.50 (UTC)

OK, let me know if you need anything else, I get mail letting me know you posted, so I'll turn up here eventually but feel free to nudge me twice if it's been a few days (I get several hundred emails a day so sometimes one slips through the cracks) ++Lar: t/c 27 jun 2009, 16.23 (UTC)


OK, we seem to have reached that point. The dictionary is now the same size as the encyclopedia, except for the pending deletes. Also, the new license has caused quite a few English messages that need translating again, and anyway, the semi-Frisian non-specialised system messages that have crept in over time will have to be corrected and wiktionarised again. So, I'd like to take you up on your offer to set this up for me. Thanks for your help. Aliter 6 jul 2009, 18.23 (UTC)

Probably should have you do a quick post at m:SRP to ask for it if it's not too much trouble. You can mention I already am aware and think it's a fine thing to do. I'll then turn it on for you. LMK if that's an issue. ++Lar: t/c 6 jul 2009, 20.16 (UTC)

Tells me for the interface I should go somewhere else. Since when is this Betawiki a wikimediawiki wiki? Anyway, last tie I saw it it claimed to be intended for what I don't want to do. I don't want to do general translations, but mediawiki specific ones, wiktionary specific ones. Aliter 6 jul 2009, 20.42 (UTC)

I may be confused, so forgive me in advance, but do remember, I'm trying to help. My imperfect understanding is that if you want to create a fy: version of a particular mediawiki message (for example MediaWiki:Pagecategories) it *can* be done here, but *should* be created in a central place, not here locally. That central place is this "" site. Which, technically isn't a WMF foundation project but it's run a lot like as if it were one. So to just work on messages, you should do it there... (see betawiki:Translating:How_to_start/en) then the next time there is a mediawiki release, they get pushed to here.... so that seems that for example, the pagecategories edit I did here was (at least technically) wrong. It should have been done there. That page should be (eventually) deleted locally after the version of it properly translated comes down from the software... (this seems to help explain that: betawiki:FAQ#How_is_the_work_done_on_translatewiki.net_connected_to_other_wikis.3F ) I dunno if that helps or not. (note there are two people listed already at betawiki:Portal:Fy Now, there may well be things that you want to have sysop for here (for example, translation of things that are protected here, but aren't mediawiki system messages), in which case my offer stands. ++Lar: t/c 6 jul 2009, 22.11 (UTC)

No, that's alright; It's me who gets confused everytime from this meta business. I know there was talk of adding mediawiki message translation to the project-group, so I have no idea why I'm now being redirected to quite a different wiki elsewhere. Anyway, it claims to be for localisation for MediaWiki, not for localisation for WikiMedia. So, like the original translation, it ought to do general translation, with the specifics done one our wikis. That's what you did: a translation that was specific for this wiki.

I want to translate the stuff for use with Wikiwurdboek. There's a personal issue here, in that I can't seem to stomach GerardM projects. But if it were a WikiMedia project, we would still need the specific translations here, not the general ones. Eg. the difference between the general "Brûker" (user), and the specific "Meidogger" (something like participant). And, yes, I would still like to wipe the pages on the Siden Wiskje.

Well, several hours of checking things, shrinking my message for you, and trying not to step on anyone's toes. Let's see if I can get at least a few pages done today. Aliter 7 jul 2009, 21.00 (UTC)

Color me confused too. MediaWiki messages get pushed (sooner or later) to all wikis that conscientiously update things. That includes WikiMedia wikis. If there isn't a specific translation already in place, the translation from the newest MW release replaces what was there (if anything)... if there is, that specific one stays visible, but the MW still slides in underneath. So I'm not quite sure what you mean, are you saying you think there are a LOT of specifics that need work here. I do apologise. ++Lar: t/c 7 jul 2009, 22.58 (UTC)

Well, that's sort of what I'm saying. Plus that I found on Wikipedia that we actually don't know what gets changed.

A general translation would speak of a "haad"-nammeromte (main namespace), a "brûker" (user), a "side" (page), a "kategory" (category) etc., rather than a "wurdboek"-nammeromte (dictionary namespace), a "meidogger" (ca. participant), a "wurd" (word), a "rubryk" (ca. class) etc.. Every message using such a term needs to be specialised for Wikiwurdboek. For other Wikimedia projects the list is different but the situation is similar.

The problem with not knowing what gets changed is that, where English messages being pushed are fairly obvious, these messages masquerade as our own messages, by using our own language. It isn't until someone notices the actual words don't match, like for the message you corrected, that we realise it's a general message that ought to be made specific.

Add to that, that the translator pool on this other wiki is really too small to peer-review the Frisian messages, and you have quite a few things that need attention. Aliter 8 jul 2009, 19.01 (UTC)

Nod. Ok so then you are saying that all (or most) of the messages you want to translate are specific, because they are specific to the type of wiki (books, or dictionary) not just the language. Meaning you want to translate them here, in place, as doing so on the translatewiki does no good... they don't even have a "category/forBooks" sort of notion, just the word "Category". Well then I think it's clear we should go forward with the temp sysopship here (and at fy:wikibooks too???)... I would just ask you to, when you find a generic thing that needs fixing rather than specific, translate it over on translatewiki, ok? ++Lar: t/c 8 jul 2009, 19.22 (UTC)

Yes, that's more or less what I meant. OK, I went through that page again. For clearing the pages there apparently was yet another procedure, that I didn't feel like checking into any further. But I went through most of the process of this page. It probably came out wrong anyway, if only because I got sidetracked when I found that to get them to do something, I was expected to first copy their own thank you note to them.

This translate wiki, I'm not sure about. Apart from everything else, two projects really take a considerable part of my time. That's also why on Wikibooks I only keep an eye on things; I'd rather not overextend. I've seen wiki-burnout too often.

Speaking of Wikibooks: Would you be able to copy Ofbyld:WIiki.png to Ofbyld:Wiki.png, there? After the request to use the new image I was told they locked the image but did something so I could update it anyway; the explanation of how to do that never reached me. They then set up a partially improved version; I built on that again, but I can't update. That's why I parked it on top of a previous spelling mistake.

Thanks for your help, Aliter 9 jul 2009, 23.21 (UTC)

The template is designed to make it easy for the stewards to grant the request without having to dig up links to things... I've granted you tempsysophood for 6 months here on fy:wikt. Does it make sense to have it over on fy:books as well? I can move that image for you but if there's more stuff to do??? LMK. Thank you for your efforts on behalf of the projects. ++Lar: t/c 10 jul 2009, 05.20 (UTC)

Yes, I know. That's why I stuck to the instructions, even where I would have expected I should have changed the heading. But instructions to copy "Thank you"?? It's something I prefer to say afterwards.

Thank you.

Aliter 10 jul 2009, 18.07 (UTC)

Well, if the instructions are explicitly asking you to copy the "thank you" that seems wrong to me, somehow. I think that it's just supposed to be a template for you to copy. Maybe it should say " your remarks here " instead of "thank you". So I changed it. I do not think anyone deliberately means to be telling people how to be polite in that particular instance. ++Lar: t/c 11 jul 2009, 15.50 (UTC)