Meidogger oerlis:TAKASUGI Shinji

Apostrophe

Dat is in goed idee om RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK te brûken yn stee fan APOSTROPHE, om't dat it advys by de Unykoade is. Spitegernôch is it advys net goed, om't nei slútklampke ornaris al wytromte komt en nei in skrapke net. Mar at jo Unykoade folgje wolle, meie wy dan oannimme dat jo der in bot oan sette om dat foar alle skrapkes by te hâlden? Aliter 2 maaie 2009, 16.17 (UTC)

I’m sorry I can speak only English, French, and Japanese. In the Unicode standard, the right single quotation mark (U+2019) is the preferred character for apostrophe (U+2000-206F). The apostrophe traditionally used (U+0027) is not recommended (U+0000-007F). The redirect is for a compatibility with French Wiktionary, where we have decided to use the former. — TAKASUGI Shinji 2 maaie 2009, 17.55 (UTC)

I 'll always assume people understand the language, unless the indicate they don't. The above translates to:

That's a good idea, to use RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK rather than APOSTROPHE, as that's the advice on the Unicode. Unfortunately, the advice isn't sound, as right quotation mark usually does have white space, where apostrophe doesn't. But if you want to follow Unicode, can we assume you'll put a Bot to work to keep that up for all apostrophes?

On the other hand, if the French wikt wants compatibility with fy:, then it would make more sense if they assured that on their own wiki. Aliter 3 maaie 2009, 15.14 (UTC)

Here on Frisian Wiktionary, I’ll use the right single quotation mark (U+2019) only for redirects. I’m active mainly on French Wiktionary, where we use it as standard apostrophe. Please check the French interwiki link in aujourd'hui and the Frisian interwiki link in fr:aujourd’hui. Wiktionary has a rule that a page and the interwiki links in it must have the identical name. — TAKASUGI Shinji 5 maaie 2009, 01.37 (UTC)

Don't worry, I did understand you wanted to do redirects only. My question was whether you intended to create an inconsistency for those cases that have a fr: page, or whether you volunteer (a bot) to add such redirects for every occurence of an apostroph in a page title.

But more importantly, Wiktionary has very few project-wide rules, and as far as I know, the one you mention isn't one of them. Closest I can find is

1. a proposal
2. en:-specific
3. about not adding (regular) ynterwiki to other words.

There's nothing that rules out that if fr: represents a word differently, that it can't handle that difference in the interwiki. But then, that never entered the discussion on fr:. The discussion there was about the interwiki bots. Your personal solution exports a problem from one wiki to all others, mutiplying it with something like a factor 100. Aliter 5 maaie 2009, 21.08 (UTC)

It’s not my personal solution at all. I prefer having interwiki links with different apostrophes. Actually, it is Robert Ullmann who taught us the existence of the rule. — TAKASUGI Shinji 6 maaie 2009, 15.32 (UTC)

Fine: Since I dislike the idea that one of us is lying, I must assume I'm stupid: Where on fr: is the community decision to make redirects to other wikis? Where on fr: does Robert Ullmann write that there's a rule saying wiktionaries can not have any difference between the title and the interwiki? Of course, if you can't answer that, I have to assume I'm not stupid. Aliter 6 maaie 2009, 21.51 (UTC)

Well, I asked him to ignore the difference between the two apostrophes in the interwiki links (en:User talk:Interwicket#French_apostrophe), but he rejected it as it is against the rule. en:Help:FAQ#What are interwiki links? sais that interwiki links must be identical matches ONLY. Since his robot continues to remove interwiki links with the different apostrophe on French Wiktionary, I have created redirections as described in en:User:Interwicket/redirects. — TAKASUGI Shinji 7 maaie 2009, 00.44 (UTC)

He's not pointing you to a wiktionary-wide rule, but to a FAQ, an explanation for en:. Connel just wrote that on en: to explain how interwiki works, not with this specific case in mind. But however that may be: You're having a disagreement with that botcontroler. Solve it with him, not will all other wikis. And, btw, removing links from fr: to en: is not in the bots task description on fr:. If it does that, it ought to be blocked first, discuss later.

And, you still owe me the proof that the fact that you keep polluting fy: is a community decision of fr:. Aliter 8 maaie 2009, 20.25 (UTC)

I don’t say it is a community decision. It is proposed by Robert Ullmann and many of us on French Wiktionary have accepted it, but it’s not official. Please read fr:Wiktionnaire:Wikidémie/mars 2009#apostrophes et interwikis. If you don’t like to have redirects, could you please explain why having redirects with the correct Unicode apostrophe is not allowed here on Frisian Wiktionary. Anyway, I haven’t created a redirect with ’ other than aujourd’hui, which is a French word with the French article name. Of course, I’ll appreciate community decisions here. — TAKASUGI Shinji 9 maaie 2009, 01.39 (UTC)

I am not sure whether it is an established rule, I have never seen it specifically outlined anywhere, but what Shinji is saying is true. There seems to be a de facto rule that interwikis have to be 100% exactly the same, in order for the interwikis to be added and corrected by the interwiki-bots. This means that there will not be an interwiki link between pages such as 'charge' and 'chargé', between pages with different capitalisation, nor between 'Côte d'Ivoire' and 'Côte d’Ivoire', because of the way they are coded (the different apostrophes are seen as different symbols in Unicode, and therefore as different, and interwiki links between two pages which do not have the exact same title will not be maintained by interwiki bots). The problem is not only for fr:, but for any wiktionary which allows articles on words/names/expressions containing an apostrophe: So long as the apostrophes are seen to be different letters, there will not be intwerwikis between them. For instance, the article Côte d'Ivoire would not link to fr:Côte d’Ivoire, despite the fact that they are both about the same word/expression. We are trying to solve this by contacting various botcontrollers, but so far, the complaint has not yielded any result, and therefore, manual insertion of redirect pages is required. V85 15 jun 2009, 22.57 (UTC)

Sorry for the use of your talk page, but the discussion was continued here.

I have no doubt that the non-dictionary interwiki does not confirm to the above. But the point is very well made: It's the bots doing that. Bots are programs, and as such should in themselves never be the reason foar changing specifications; the program should be written and modified to match with the users' desires.

Whether fr: want to give in to bot-coontrolers holding their interwiki hostage is not a fy: concern (nor is the mistaken advice in Unicode.)

If you want to solve the issue despite the bots, just write a javascript that will correct your interwiki on page load. As the malicious bots don't know about {{OtherInterwiki|fy|Côte d'Ivoire}}, they won't destroy it. It's all a matter of programming. Aliter 17 jun 2009, 01.15 (UTC)

It works for existing interwikis, but no bot would add a new interwiki with a different apostrophe. Currently, we simply cannot reach Frisian articles from French Wiktionary. — TAKASUGI Shinji 18 jun 2009, 23.02 (UTC)

Sure, any OtherInterwiki-aware bot could; it is after all merely a way to hide it from bots that lack sufficient knowledge. And, of course, it should be quite easy to make an apostrophe-bot to copy the interwiki from the redirect-pages to OtherInterwiki-entries on the content pages. Aliter 19 jun 2009, 01.08 (UTC)